Originally Posted by Thallandor

FexFX let me say this if you will.

Mentor system have already existed and proven not to work on a wide scale.

Its call PRE-HERO-PUG era.

In the past before Heros, everyone either PuGed or do missions with the sub standard AI called hencies. Back then most players were either ungrateful/brats/idiots/leeches/rude to other players who would give share on how a mission would work or the tips to it. Back then lesser players would just get carried forward into the game and just piss off others with their attitude and rage quits. Essentially what i am trying to tell you is:

In the past, other than your guild and friend list ingame community is close to non-existance and that is why HEROS were a god send.

Trying to tell others things like: "Hey lets all be nice and play with each others, Best friends 4ever?" have been proven not to work.

There will always be those who would give their own time to help others or be sociable and seek PuGs, but blaming Heros for the choice on how other should be playing their game is IMHO a indication of lack of self assertiveness. If you like some one to hold your hand and play your game for you, go buy a level 60 account on WoW.

Originally Posted by FexFX

I think you have my angle confused...I'm not blaming Heroes for anything, in fact I love Heroes, they are a great idea! As you said they are a god send! So please do not think for even a moment that I am blaming Heroes for anything.

I however do not share your assertion that PUGing is hopeless, and that it's useless to try because of the attitudes and actions of lesser players...

And dont get me wrong, I'm not hoping to turn this game into a utopia, I am just trying to work for improvement rather than accepting that things are on an inevitable and hopless downward spiral.

Originally Posted by xxSilhouette

Well heres a couple of things

One, Im not a runner anymore - In fact i probley only did runs for about a 2 week period - and a lot of them were for friends i had, or for tips. I originally wanted to do it as a way to make money, But there were so many people who didn't tip, who just left - or people who didn't pay whatever i was aksing - and i never really made that much from it, and it was quite boring.

And the other, I didn't expect payment from them - otherwise i would have told them. But if you were a new player, and someone said they would help you out, for free, Would you not have the respect to thank them?? I would thank them, Anytime I have ever gotten help in any way from anyone, I thank the person.

And that was just one example. I have had a lot of things bad happen and very few good when i have been willing to help another person. Anytime i help a friend out, they are always very thankful, and when i help a complete stranger out, sometimes they are nice, and thank me, and other times they don't say a word to me, and just leave after i have helped them get what they want. Frankly, I hate doing things for people when they dont really care or appreciate it.

And again, I am no longer a runner, and when i have helped others i havent been just a runner. I have helped people on each of my characters, And I have one of each character class. I have helped as a monk to groups that needed a monk badly, I often times would go to towns with my monk - even to a mission i had already done, beacuse I knew monks were badly needed before hero's.

Edit: I think you are confusing the point i am really trying to make. It would be AWESOME if you could go back and help people out, and if they could truely appreciate it, and learn from you. and in some cases, that happens, and in others the person is rude, they don't learn anything, and/or they just leech from you. And I don't know about anyone else, But I wouldn't want to waste my time on a person like that.

Originally Posted by Thallandor

In that case, i wish you luck and good will since my experience as with most things is: Its often easier to change yourself than others. Its not easy to forget 16 months of bad PuG experiences (Pugs have become like a marriage gone bad lol)

The Holding hands and WoW statement wasnt neccessary targeted at you but generally to all those who would blame everyone else but themselves for their all their problems or the state of the events ingame post Heros. Glad you didnt take it too personally.

There are some PuGs that are good and it can be a good way to meet people but the bad often outweight the good ones more often not.

Originally Posted by Kern Wolf

I think it was easier to find a decent/good PUG when there was just Prophecies, just as it was easier then to help noobs.

Think about it; when it was just Prophecies, everyone was starting out, somewhat, at the same level (I'm talking about PVE). Learning your chosen profession, the skills, the missions, builds...you get the idea. I was a prime example of a noob (and when I say noob, I mean NOOB)..I had never played a MMORPG before Prophecies. I took my time in Pre-Searing learning how to play a warrior; how my skills worked, how to read the map, what aggro was--you get the point. The only people I grouped with at the time were guildmates for a few of the first missions after Pre-Searing--hadn't worked up the nerve to group with other people yet, because my worry was that I was gonna stink up the joint.

At some point, IMO, there is a moment when you, as a player, have to make a choice; how good do you want to be at this game? Do you want to just run with guildmates and coast, or test what it is you know, and see what you can do by yourself?

The Frost Gate mission was my moment. It took me about 6-8 attempts, but I did it. That mission taught me some things--that one build doesnt work for the whole game; how to make a balanced group (with henches), and most important, to learn SOMETHING about a mission/quest before I try it (I'll also say, the whole time, I did enjoy it, ESPECIALLY when I beat it!). Now, yes, I could have gotten my guildmates to help me, but I wouldn't have had that learning moment, and, IMO, would probably have felt like a liability in a PUG. BUT, once I went through that "trial by fire", I felt my grasp of the mechanics benefitted because of that.

IMO, the best time to help noobs would be at the begining of the game--Pre-Searing in Prophecies, Shing Jea in Factions, Istan in Nightfall, and the first few missions in each chapter. After that, I don't think it unreasonable to expect PUG members to have some idea about the mission or quest you're about to embark on.

I also think, at this point, that it's up to you, as the experienced player, to know when a person needs some real help, and if they're sincere about it, versus someone who's looking for a ride through the mission/quest, or for you to be theire "runner" all over the map. At this point, IMO, is when your Friend's List comes in. You find that person who you want to help-- talk to them 1st. It doesnt take anything but a little time to answer questions; that's how you get to know people, and you get a genuine feel for if they're sincere or not. If they are, guess what? you've made a friend. If not, then it didnt cost you anything but 5-10 minutes.

Originally Posted by Knightsaber Sith

I have turned my back on PUG's, got through all of Nightfall with hench and heroes and hope to never be put in a position to have to rely on a PUG.

Originally Posted by lyra_song

People seen to confuse a handout from mentorship.

Originally Posted by combat slasher

amen. if there were more helping hands in gw it would run smother. (not that it isnt) but for people that just started playing RPG's and gw is there 1st one. make it enjoyable not stupid. when u 1st started playing you asked for help. not only in gw but this goes to the world issues too. helping hands make light work. you could be having fun helping a new player quest and timw will pass. youll be surprized that when you actually me this "n00b" he/she could be a very nice person.

Originally Posted by Eviance

The OP loves to use question marks -_-;;;

However he is right in a lot of ways... I know a lot of you are voicing loudly against helping newbs but not all are the same and some would greatly bennefit from some assistance and understanding here and there. There are simple things like teaching them about controls and so forth that will help them without actually taking any real time away from what you are doing... Do you have any idea how helpful it is to a newb to learn what alt and control do? It wasn't for a few months that I ever bothered to read the manual and most are the same - they don't want to read they want to play.

Everyone starts out at the bottom, some of us are just litterally ahead of the game. If I hadn't been determined to make my cap in a lame dead capping group I wouldn't have met one other like mind that introduced me and my guild to farming things like SF/FoW/UW. We had no clue how to do SF or FoW till then and now we are decently skilled at it and we occassionally take some newbs with us to show them the ropes so that they can go on to teach someone else.

Not everyone is going to look a gift horse in the mouth, take it for what it is, even if it's only making you feel better about yourself. You cannot force them to improve but just the effort will eventually be truly worth it.

Also I don't think the OP meant that we should go through the game with newbs on our high levels, but that creating a low level and going through over again when bored would be helpful indeed. I do not believe being a high level and helping newbs through missions is that great of an idea -_- Seems to either turn them off to the game or makes them moochers >_<


(these are my opinions!)

I want to add that I refuse to "completely" PUG any mission that I need.... Getting left on the wayside because the majority of the group is Pugs and they all think they are some form of leet makes it very hard to lead them -_- However if I have at least 1-2 other guildmates with me, no prob - if the group wont listen though ya can't force them... You come to realize that they will wise up and complete the task at hand or you will all perish. Either way it wont be but a few mins more why quit? Besides if you see them fail because they refuse to listen they might still their fingers long enough for you to explain the second time around what they refused to pay attention to the first.

Originally Posted by Rera

The main problem is that the average newbie isn't willing to learn. I've tried to teach people and it's like talking to a brick wall. Heck, people won't even listen to you on the forums, nevermind in-game. Take a look at all of the builds posted in the class sections - 90% of them are utter garbage, but people keep posting the same kinds of builds anyway.

Wonder why henchmen are so amazing? Their AI sucks and their skillbars are sub-par, but they follow directions. If newbies could do this, PuGing wouldn't draw all of this hate.

Originally Posted by korcan

without some type of "screening" process for potential buyers of gw products there will always be your "forever nubbers". like the op has stated, helping others in a thoughtful manner maybe a step in the right direction in alleviating the problem but its not going to cure all woes. we live in an imperfect world and there will be people willing to help out of the goodness of their hearts [ie. gw mother theresas], others that will help for self gratification [the minority of the gw population], and yet others that will do nothing at all because they believe it to be hopeless [the majority of the gw population].

i, for one, do what i can to help noobs get on their feet but in the end, whether my help contributes to the problem or helps, i really dont know.